I am alive.
Moved to WF
Got a job
About to buy a house
I've had no time to read what people are thinking, but I'm coming back to the hobby with a strong suspicion: Meching up the Eldar is wrong. No time for an elaborate post, so here are the big reasons:
1) My tanks are too large and tall and oddly shaped to take advantage of good cover. Compare a Falcon on a peg to a rhino and you'll see what I mean.
2) 2 of my tanks do not screen 50% of a third tank, unlike human's boxy vehicles. And if somehow I can finagle the cover, I've denied the screened tank LOS from its guns.
3) My tanks are pricier
4) My infantry multitask better than my vehicles.
Is this old hat? Is my thinking straight on this?
There's more, but I'm starting to think that 8 points for a guardian is pretty good, especially since I can upgrade him in different ways for fairly cheap. Anyone ever heard of a Guardian horde working?
Ok, more later...
10 years ago
Man, but you always do things the hard way!
ReplyDeleteThe conventional wisdom is that Footdar suck. Yet they have won some big events recently, prompting comments that the opposition must suck. That's lazy thinking; there's got to be reasons why it can work.
Can work... can be the word to look at here.
I think Mech Eldar are best with Hybrid Eldar being close behind. I think Footdar are suboptimal, but they've got some options that might work.
For example, here's something I threw together, with the general idea of playing counter-punching. You'd want to stay on your side of the board then use your speed to contest objectives on the opposite table quarter. The Avatar is the linchpin, keeping units fearless. It has threats - for example, Doom plus torrenting Str. 6 hits from a distance can clear units - the Str. 6 weapons are your light AV - and so on.
Problem is, it's fragile. You have to have bodies to soak the hits. Guard will tear you a new one, no problem.
Basically, I think you're over-thinking the downsides of your vehicles. They cost too much now, but are fantastic. Gauthic's running a great Mech list and is having success.
Brent
PS - glad to have you back - when are you coming around?
1 Avatar @ 155 Pts
ReplyDelete(pp.24 & 61 Eldar); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; Daemon; Inspiring; Molten Body; Wailing Doom
1 Eldrad Ulthran @ 210 Pts
(pp.50-51 & 61 Eldar); Psyker; Doom ; Eldritch Storm ; Fortune ; Guide ; Mind War ; Divination; Independent Character; Ghosthelm; Rune Armour; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; Staff of Ulthamar
5 Fire Dragons @ 108 Pts
(pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs
1 Fire Dragon Exarch @ [28] Pts
Fleet; Dragon's Breath Flamer; Melta Bombs
5 Fire Dragons @ 108 Pts
(pp.32 & 62 Eldar); Fleet; Fusion Gun; Melta Bombs
1 Fire Dragon Exarch @ [28] Pts
Fleet; Dragon's Breath Flamer; Melta Bombs
4 Howling Banshees @ 102 Pts
(pp.31 & 63 Eldar); Fleet; Banshee Mask; Power Weapon; Shuriken Pistol
1 Howling Banshee Exarch @ [38] Pts
Fleet; Banshee Mask; Shuriken Pistol; Executioner
10 Storm Guardians @ 132 Pts
(p.39 & p.64 Eldar); Fleet; Close Combat Weapon; Shuriken Pistol; Flamer (x2)
1 Warlock @ [40] Pts
(p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Enhance ; Fleet; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade
10 Storm Guardians @ 132 Pts
(p.39 & p.64 Eldar); Fleet; Flamer (x2)
1 Warlock @ [40] Pts
(p.27-28 & p.60 Eldar); Psyker; Enhance ; Fleet; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
(pp.40 & 64 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Cannon (x1); TL Shuriken Catapults (x2)
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
(pp.40 & 64 Eldar); Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Cannon (x1); TL Shuriken Catapults (x2)
1 Vyper Squadron @ 130 Pts
(pp.41 & 65 Eldar)
1 Vyper @ [60] Pts
Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper @ [70] Pts
Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper Squadron @ 130 Pts
(pp.41 & 65 Eldar)
1 Vyper @ [60] Pts
Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper @ [70] Pts
Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper Squadron @ 130 Pts
(pp.41 & 65 Eldar)
1 Vyper @ [60] Pts
Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper @ [70] Pts
Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon
1 War Walker Squadron @ 180 Pts
(pp.44 & 66 Eldar); Scouts
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
1 War Walker Squadron @ 180 Pts
(pp.44 & 66 Eldar); Scouts
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
1 War Walker @ [60] Pts
Scatter Laser; Scatter Laser
2 Dark Reapers @ 147 Pts
(pp.34 & 66 Eldar); Reaper Launcher
1 Dark Reaper Exarch @ [77] Pts
Crack Shot ; Tempest Launcher
First things first: Glad to be back. I almost appeared on Friday night, but had a game to finish in Simon's garage. But soon!
ReplyDeleteNext, I agree that Footdar are fragile, hence the idea of the Guardian horde--you're right that I need bodies! Again, you're right that one must have the Avatar/Eldred nucleus at the center of a footdar army. Also, I should add that even though I'm currently thinking of excluding bikes, vyps, walkers, transports and falcons, I'm really tempted to put in 3 fire prisms, since they multi-task and scale fire so well.
About my vehicles: Unlike other armies, there is no point in running formations to create mobile cover. Mine just don't work that way. And you are right that my tanks are good, but I'm just thinking not worth the money. It's a bitch finding even a single place on the board to give an Eldar tank cover, much less hiding several tanks. So mine cost more and are LESS survivable than cheaper tanks (w/ v5 cover rules). And (excepting the Fire Prisms) my tanks are only ever good at one function unless I waste points making it a multitaskers. It's much cheaper (and durable!) to buy infantry to do most jobs.
If you think that tank-busting is best left to ranged weaponry, then you might disagree, but the Eldar have a lot of short-range fire arms and CC attacks that can kill tanks for cheaper.
Ok, I wanna look at your proposed list...
ReplyDeleteHQ-check
Fire Dragons. I think 15-30 on foot are more effective than in transports. Embark/Disembark rules are pretty limiting and the FD threat is contained to much fewer square inches on the table. True, they are more survival in a transport, but at 2500 pts, there should be plenty of other Eldar on the table to draw fire OR do the job should the FDs die.
Aside: What do you think of 10 Storm guards with 2 fusion guns followed by 5 FD followed by 5 Hawks running as a team to harry tanks? Yes, collectively they are pricy, but whatever survives will be good to have in the midfield (and should kill tanks). End random aside.
Banshees and not Harlies? Price? The reason I lean more toward the Harlies is the kiss. They can take out tanks.
Storm Guards. I prefer 20 man squads. Enhance is the right choice if you have an Avatar nearby. Otherwise I like Embolden.
Do you reserve the bikes, hide them and swoop in for objectives? If so, I'd drop the Cannons. If not, how do they survive? Just too small to swat?
That's a lot of vypers. I really don't like them, but they are fast and the second cheapest platform for big guns. With my crappy BS, scatter lasers and shuriken cannons are good choices.
I like all the walkers. So cheap! Outflanking with them is nice too (if I can spare them on the first turn). I like all the scatter lasers.
You just can't NOT take Reapers can you? :) They are sweet, although I don't believe any element of Footdar can be static. My formations have to move, shoot, and relocate to the objective center.
And I notice there's not a single point waisted on BL's! I like that too.
Good list. More defensive than I've been thinking. You wanna comment on it before I post a more agressive (and probably lesss effective) version?
Sure.
ReplyDeleteHQ: Yup... for Footdar, there is no other choice.
Elite: You're probably right. Drop the Exarch and run two 10-man squads. It's ironic you pointed this out, since I'm the big advocate of larger FD squads, even when mounted.
Troops: I like the big Storm Guardians idea. I think Enhance is the only way the army works though, which means you have to keep the Avatar around. It's why he's the linchpin. With 20-strong, you've at least made it more difficult to force those tests. Not much though, so I see your reason. Still, Enhance is too good for Storm Guardians; frankly, it's what makes them a threat at all.
Re: Guardian Jetbikes... another irony, given I've never advocated giving a small unit the Shuriken Cannon. Basically, the unit should never consider getting closer than 24-inches, so why have the gun? Still, I've had folks push for this too often, and I can see a time when the unit is behind a tank, wishing it could hurt it. If you dropped it, I'd understand. If you include it, I'd understand. In my own army, I probably wouldn't include it, but Fritz advocates it and he's that good.
Vipers and War Walkers: In my opinion, these units are what makes the Footdar work.
Dark Reapers: You're right! There is a reason, though. This unit can single-handedly ruin your opponent's day. Also, having a lever from which to swing your mobile elements doesn't hurt.
I'm looking forward to your list.
Brent
You passed on the opportunity to comment on my Hawks question! ;) Fair enough.
ReplyDeleteAnother time we can debate Banshees vs. Harlies.
As far as giving Cannons to jetbikes, if I get them in range, then I'm usually in range to assualt with a witchblade--a little more expensive than a shuriken cannon, but more effective.
So you think that 3 Prisms rather than a bunch of walkers and vypers is putting all my eggs in one basket?
Dark Reapers are good. But there are a few scenarios where a foot army HAS to abandon its deployment zone. In these cases, the DR are basically abandoned. Which is okay I think (I'll have to think on that).
I'll try to post a list this week...
I think maybe I'm confused about the type of Footdar you want to run. I like 3 Fire Prisms; that's a good option.
ReplyDeleteAre you wanting a mixed (Hybrid) list?
I chose Banshees due to points - you don't have to spend anything further the way you have to do with Harlies. Of the two, I much prefer Harlies - but they get expensive quick.
I did ignore the Hawks comment! Interestingly, I think the only good way to use them is the way you outlined. I'm not sure how good though...
So, if I'm reading your mind - and you're making it hard! - you want to keep your vehicles at a distance since you can't rely on cover, artificial or otherwise, when you get close?
Brent
Well, I have a strictly Foot list that I'll post. It is short on ranged firepower. Then I have what I'm guessing you'd call Hybrid, but there are no transports, bikes, vyps or even walkers--Just 3 prisms.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure how good back-row hawks will work either. I haven't thought it to death yet, which certainly means I haven't played it yet either. Maybe that is an indulgence I'll enjoy this summer? (Likely a waste of time though, eh?)
Your mind-reading skills are impressive. As much as I like the wave serpents energy field for denying meltas their extra die, meltas really only need one die to damage my AV 12 serpents. Since they aren't very good at getting cover, I need a multitude of them, which gets expensive! And they can't have the holo feild. So I'm really only interested in the Falcon or the Prism. The Falcon has too small a capacity to be anything more than a mobile objective taker, and its firepower is puny next to the prism. (especially when taking BS into consideration). Add to that the fact that the prism has a better range and scalable fire that's TL, and why would I ever take a falcon? PLUS, only one of my 2 or 3 FP needs LOS to fire a combined shot. This makes getting shots without confering cover saves much easier.
Okay, lunch breaks are short...more later!